Nutty Putty Cave




















X2
X3
X4
X5
X6
X7
X8
X9
X10

NUTTY PUTTY CAVE
ANONYMOUS MESSAGES

The following link was submitted anonymously and shares the death of a 1959 caver in England who died and his body could not be retrieved. His passage was sealed and caving has continued to this day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Moss_(caver)

.
Michael LeavittWARNING: The following was message was also shared anonymously and I do not know how valid the information shared is, and we now have no idea who sent it or its validity. I am keeping my promise to share the coherent responses, but I am warning you to not read this message until the writer returns and shares more about themselves. This isn’t Watergate, and I am not entertaining anonymous tips and leads. It would make for a great movie, but my time here on earth is too precious. Tread carefully if you decide to read the following... Michael Leavitt

First the Personal stuff. To the Jones a Real American Family Your loss Makes this whole argument Painful to Make. please accept my condolences. 
 
Mr. Leavitt, You have my admiration and Respect, as do All of the people involved in this incident. please understand this comment is in no way an attack, It is meant as an Eye Opener. you have put a great deal of time and effort into this sport and this location.  I read all that you and the the Grotto have been through over the years.  I would have made these suggestions to you years ago if I had stumbled on this site back in the early days of your project.     
 
I wish I could get involved Now. Prior Obligations Prevent it, but I can Point Out somethings that You Don't know. 

Here is a riddle ... If you don't Know that something is, Would you Look for it. these people are on the right track but it's a service road.   You are told the land is private. IT IS. They Think the land is Public... IT IS... Please read on.  I may not be able to help you myself but I can try to show you how to help yourself. 
 
I have read in amazement. You Assume that #1 Ownership of this land is Cut and Dry fact. (read into this line ::..PORK BARREL SPENDING..) #2 Nothing is ever what it seems. (...READ MICROSOFT USER AGREEMENT...) Who owns your windows software? You Do Right!! Wrong!  and I would Beg of you to Ask The Smartest Lawyer that you know Just to Read the Public Trust  Record. Not Limited to the State Record. Look Also at the Documentation behind the Federal Granting and Trust Establishment Record. Then Ask that same Lawyer What type of Attorney you would need (..Read:: Wills Trusts and Estates...)  to win over for the help you need to gain Real control of the caves Not Just Nutty Putty  (without)Losing the Shield from Litigation,(read:Federal Government Blanket Immunity)  and Start From that Point. What You Have Been Told By SITLA Is a Misleading Half truth, that they themselves may believe is true,,  They would be Wrong. I checked the database today. the status of that plat has not changed in 23 years.  It States Plain As Day In Legalese  The State Owns The Right To Manage The Income This Land May Produce, It Must Pay out that Income to Certain Beneficiaries,minus reasonable Expenses.   The Trust Must enter into Partnerships to make a profit, any Profit. ::::**** say oh Iduno?????($15.00 a head for an annual permit, $10.00 a Day for a day pass) The Trust Does Not Own The Land. I have done the Research, *more than once*  If you all wish to keep the caves open: You can, Trust Grants can be revoked, and Nullified. In Whole Or In Part, This May Be an Issue for the Courts But Not in the way You All are Looking At the Big Picture. Also Ownership Not withstanding, The County Is Compelled to Retrieve Mr. Jones. If they Can Touch him they Must Remove him. Again Case Law.  *think U.S. Not Ut. the clues I give you It is Up to you to pursue.  Mr. Jones Does not Belong In the Cave. He is not lost he is stuck. this makes all of the difference.  I am sorry if any of this offended anyone. Best Of Luck and May God be With you all.
KA FFAC - MyTown, US

Michael LeavittThe following message from Kim Scoville confirms that many of the points mentioned above appear valid, if one wanted to pursue the cave closure further.

Michael,

I think you are doing a great job as a moderator of this emotional and complex discussion. Not to mention all the convoluted politics you waded through the first go'round to get the cave reopened.   As a lawyer reading between the lines, I wondered if the anonymous comment came from a person who has some insight into the legal situation, but can not reveal themselves or offer any direct help due to attorney/client privilege or conflict of interest (the "prior engagement").  It is not my area of the law, so I can't do much more than try to shed some light on the cryptic message, and hope it is helpful to someone interested in pursuing the legal issues down the road. 

I believe the point the person is trying to make is that demanding public comment is misguided and does not fit the situation.  I think the person is suggesting that the land is owned by the federal government, but SITLA (a private party) appears on the land records because they are the trustee, and control access to the land.  The poster suggests that a lawyer specializing in trusts, should review the granting documents to determine if there is a legal way to remove this particular land from the SITLA trust, or remove SITLA as trustee, perhaps on the grounds that they are failing or refusing to generate income from the resources on the land (the cave). The person is suggesting that if the trust is revoked, it returns the land to the federal government, and is then covered by governmental immunity (you can't sue the government for injury on government land, AND government may have to foot the bill for future rescues on federal land). BTW, this also explains why they don't close ZION when someone falls - Uncle Sam does not have the same worries as a private party would for injury on federal land.  Anyone doing legal work for SITLA can not tell you something that would jeopardize SITLA's status as trustee. However it is NOT in SITLAs interest to be in the middle of this. They may have no choice on which land they receive and must manage.   They may not even put up much of a legal fight in relinquishing a small portion of the trust land that has caused them so many headaches, and is not making them money. SO I think the anonymous poster is hoping someone will pick up their research "clues" and sue to remove this land from the SITLA trust. 

There is another clue about the county having to pay to retrieve a body they can touch - I'm not sure I get that one, or whether it matters now that the section of the cave is sealed. But the point is that there is more to be resolved here besides the land use issues. I feel heartsick for this family and the limited options they were faced with in laying their loved one to rest.  I hope whomever pursues this does so with utmost respect and sensitivity to the family.

Kim Scoville
Provo, Utah

 
 
PLEASE SHARE YOUR THOUGHTS
Comments:
     

First Name:
Last Name:
City:
State:
E-mail: